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Closed 12 years ago.
So I apologize if I'm posting this in the wrong place but I thought asking the coding crowd would be best.
So I'm building a website with 3 developers. One dev is on front-end, one on PHP back-end and one on the database design. The core application of the website is actually much more complicated than i/we (the devs here) originally imagined it would be. The hardest part is in the database design and the design and development of the CMS to manage the database. Working closely with one dev, we have created the final version of the database. This is good news. Meanwhile, the rest of the site is being built with Zend with the other 2 developers.
Essentially what has happened is that the database designer that I have been working with has all the knowledge in his head because he worked with me consistently to design the DB by learning about the technicalities of the domain, industry terminology, the system requirements and so forth. He has also designed the CMS to manage the products that we will insert as per his data structure. Logically, he should really be the one then to code the core application because he knows deeply what he designed. However our system is in PHP and he's a Java dev. So I'm pondering what do to. He has agreed that he could learn PHP in about 2-3 weeks he estimated but admits that at the start, coding would be quite slow while he falls over a few times.
The lead developer on the other hand knows little about the requirements of the core app, the design of the database, the products and the business domain and would therefore take a long time to go through the same process of transferring all this knowledge until he's intimately familiar with everything. So its really a question of time. Would it be faster for a 6 year Java dev to learn PHP and build the core app or would it be faster for the 6 year PHP dev to pick up the knowledge from myself and the database dev?
Is it a close call? Is there a clear winner?
Any advice/suggestions?
Thanks
In essence I think that having experience of design and a good knowledge of how systems work is the most important thing.
Individual languages can be learned (and yes, there is a learning curve, while the syntax is absorbed, then the idioms, etc) and whilst having someone who knows a language when they start makes them a little quicker off the mark, I would choose someone with good design skills over someone with weaker design, but more knowledge of the language.
Language skills can be learned much more quickly than design principles.
In your situation, you have a problem. Two good people with different skillsets. Surely the ideal solution (if it's financially viable) is to have them work as team. Then both will learn much more quickly from the other where they are weak - and they'll be able to discuss design issues and rational. You should end up with a vastly superior product, and two developers whith enhanced skillsets and expanded experience. A win-win, if they can work well togther.
I agree with #Ragster - get the database guy and the UI guy to work together. There's even a buzzword for this - it is called pair programming.
But I'd add one thing. It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that the database guy has all of the knowledge in his head ... and there is nothing written down. This is not good. What happens if the database guy is run over by a green bus?
Maybe you need to make the database guy's number one priority to document the database design in a form that the UI guy can assimilate.
I would vote for using the experienced PHP dev rather than one new to PHP. Any experienced PHP dev should be able to take a brief from you and your colleague on what is needed and utilise the db design work already done.
A dev new to PHP will not produce code that is as well written as an experienced dev and that could cause you problems in the future.
The other solution would be to use Java for this application even if some of your other apps are PHP based. The two can live pretty well side by side.
I'd vote for the PHP-dev, working alongside the database/java dev.
That way, the database/java dev begins to get exposure to PHP, which will help his learning curve; while the PHP-dev will pick up the database structure and the all-important business rationale/details from the database/java dev.
You shouldn't create a dependency on any one person if you can help it, but distribute the application knowledge across your team. This way, you'll end up with a stronger team overall.
You should also ensure that the knowledge isn't maintained purely in anybodys head, but is documented. Always consider the dangers of a number 17 bus when all the knowledge is in somebody's head.
The nature of your question implies that you expect your programmers to develop in single-user mode throughout. I have honestly never met a situation where that was less appropriate than for you right now. Allow/instruct the obvious candidates to use pair programming, and the problem will simply dissolve into thin air. You will get better understanding within the team, faster results, better code, more unified solutions all around...
I am not being flippant here. If you have any historical or even ideological aversions to pair programming, please please please try to just get over them. It just is that much more efficient.
Related
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Closed 11 years ago.
As the title states; the way one groups classes in PHP compared to for example Java, is it supposed to be different? I am currently reading O'Reilly's book OOA&D and in the chapters I've learned to use one class for each specific task and not one class for a grouped thing. Recently, I looked upon some code for a calendar, and the class was thousands of lines and had everything inside it that was to be used. However, this feels to me like it's violating the point of having many objects doing one task, but seeing as PHP is web development, is it supposed to be different? E.g. monster-classes.
Answer: use good design principles, even in PHP.
In addition to not creating Monster classes (also known as God-classes or objects) the following patterns are worth mentioning specifically:
Object naming:
Class names should be nouns because they are objects.
Method names should be verbs, because they are actions.
Cohesion. The short-version is basically: methods do one thing and do it well.
Property Visibility: Variables should private unless you've got a dang good reason not to, and in such case, use protected. Almost always you should avoid public.
Use interfaces and abstractions. Almost no one uses interfaces in PHP, but they should. It means that I can write my own implementation details but still hook in with some service that uses the class.
A somewhat outdated article on PHP design patterns that's still worth reading but is hard on the eyes.
Short-version:
If you are ever relying on an array to hold a particular structure it should probably be in a class.
An example from my life: ActiveRecord
What if I want to build a website that does not need any particular Active Record implemenation? At the moment, I'm quite stuck once I choose an implementation because they are all so unique. If they actually implemented an ActiveRecordInterface, I would be able to swap out my actual ActiveRecordEngine if I wanted to change.
I've learned object-oriented programming over 15 years ago and have been using it with C++, Java, Pascal. The PHP at that time was much less powerful than it is now. It took PHP about 10 years to implement Objects properly. They finally work fast, references are passed properly.
Unfortunately, many developers who started with PHP haven't got a grasp on a proper object-oriented design of software. The class is often used like a "library" and everyone speaks about de-coupling and having everything independent, so in many cases classes won't have parent.
There are no solid foundation what everyone could agree on and use. When you turn to the frameworks, some are better and other are worst in terms of the proper OOP. For instance, the proper Code Igniter framework is fast, secure, simple to use, but has very bad OOP design. The main reason is compatibility with PHP4.
For a better-structured frameworks, simply look at the source code of some of their components:
Tabs in Yii: http://code.google.com/p/yii/source/browse/tags/1.1.8/framework/web/widgets/CTabView.php
Tabs in Agile Toolkit:
https://github.com/atk4/atk4/blob/master/lib/View/Tabs/jUItabs.php
Tabs in CakePHP:
http://bakery.cakephp.org/%20articles/view/4caea0e3-ac74-409b-8693-435282f0cb67
My conclusion is that the language in itself is OK, but a lot of badly written code is out there.
It is not supposed to be so. Monser-classes are always "bad" because it is hard to fix bugs / implement new features or maintain your code.
Just because people have written the code and made the source available doesn't mean that it's always going to be good code.
The principles you're used to (small classes that do their one thing well) is a good one. But not every developer follows those principles.
In the PHP world, a lot of people have worked their way up through it from the early days, when everything was in a single procedural monolithic block of code -- and I've seen some horrendous examples of that still in everyday use. Converting one's mindset from that to an OOP structure at all can be a big leap for some people, and even for people who haven't come from that background, a lot of the code examples they would be learning from are, so it's not a surprise to see monster classes.
The short answer is to write code the way you're comfortable with and the way you've been taught. It sounds like you've got better coding practices ingrained into you than most PHP developers out there, so don't feel you have to change just because other people are doing things differently.
Don't know if this answers your question but my experience is that it's quite common for PHP scripts and plugins like the calendar you mention to be constructed in the monster-class kind of way because of PHP's poor support of namespaces and encapsulation. The same goes for Javascript which also tends to have superbig classes in some cases (jQuery for example).
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Closed 11 years ago.
The engine I've been wanting to remake is from a PlayStation 1 game called Final Fantasy Tactics, and the game is basically a 2.5D game I guess you could say. Low-resolution sprites and textures, and 3D maps for battlefields. The plan is to mainly load the graphics from a disc, or .iso (I already know the sectors the graphics need to be read from) and fill in the rest with game logic and graphics routines, and probably load other things from the disc like the map data.
I want this to be a multiplatform project, because I use Linux and would like for more people to join in on the project once I have enough done (and it's easy to get more people through platforms like Windows). I'll be making a website to host the project. Also, none of the graphics will be distributed, they'll have to be loaded from your own disc. I'd rather not have to deal with any legal issues.. At least not soon after the project is hosted on my site.
But anyway, here's my dilemma- I know quite a bit of Java, and some Python, but I'm worried about performance/feature issues if I make this engine using one of these two languages. I chose them due to familiarity and platform independence, but I haven't gotten too into graphics programming yet. I'm very much willing to learn, however, and I've done quite a bit of ASM work on the game- looking at graphics routines and whatnot. What would be the best route to take for a project like this? Oh, and keep in mind I'll eventually want to add higher-resolution textures in an .iso restructuring patch or something.
I'm assuming based on my results on Google that I could go with something like Pygame + OpenGL, JOGL, Pyglet, etc. Any suggestions on an API? Which has plenty of documentation/support for game or graphics programming? Do they have any serious performance hits?
Thank you for your time.
I'd recommend going with PySFML, and, of course, Python.
If you do your Python programming correctly , and if you really are willing to fiddle with C or ASM Python plugins for faster computations, you shouldn't really have too much performace hits.
First thing, I wouldn't worry too much about language performance at this moment. If you worry about performance unnecessarily and choose the wrong/hard platform, your project will be dead before it started..because it will take it longer for you to produce something and harder to get other people to join your project.
Since your are familiar with Java & Python, I'll suggest do your project with Jython or JRuby. That way you get to write in nice and powerful language with the benefit of Java runtime.
By choosing to run it on Java runtime you get:
Multi platforms support, so this address your concern about linux/window platform.
Latest Java runtime is very good and in most cases the JIT can perform equal or better to natively compiled program.
At the end of the day if you're passionate about the project and committed to getting the most out of the language you choose, the performance difference between java and python will be minimal if non-existent.
Personally speaking, the biggest challenge is finishing the project once it loses novelty and initial momentum. I suggest you go with whichever language you're more passionate about and are interested in plumbing the depths of, or one that could boost your resume.
Secondly, as you mention you're hoping to attract contributors, you may want to factor that into your decision. I can't comment much here, but have a look at similar projects with lots of activity.
Good luck!
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Closed 11 years ago.
I'm looking into writing my first application of Google App Engine. C# is my 'native' language, and so writing the app in Java would of course be most logical. BUT, I'm a geek and would like to take to opportunity to learn something new.
Therefore its a toss-up between Python and Go.
Do you have a strong preference based on experience (ideally in the context of writing on App Engine).
If you've come from C# (or another similar language), how was the transition?
The recently-released Go runtime for App Engine is labelled experimental for a reason: Both Go and Go-on-appengine are new and in a state of change.
If you want to experiment with Go and running Go apps in the cloud, go for it. If you want to write a production app on App Engine, use Python or Java.
This question is about as subjective as they come, but I'll bite anyway.
Python is easier to learn, has a much larger development community, is mature, and has a lot of third-party libraries available for you to integrate into your application. It's a winner for sure.
That said, Go is an extremely well-designed language. Far, far more so than Python. Go was specifically designed to allow you to catch most mistakes at compile time, while Python is almost legendary for its ability to mask your mistakes. Go code tends to be easier to maintain. Go is also dramatically more efficient than Python -- several times faster or even several orders of magnitude faster, depending on what you're doing.
Both languages are very powerful and very fast to write code in -- you can accomplish a lot in a short amount of space. But Go is unfinished and still in a state of flux, with core APIs still changing. It has a comparatively small developer base, and very few "real world" usage examples. Nonetheless, even this early in its development, it's already shown to be a compelling alternative with a clear use case.
I did a Python app for GAE recently and coming from C# I had no problems/was able to pick it up in a few days tinkering with the docs and playing with the SDK (I had some previous experience with python).
Python is pretty intuitive, it's imperative and OO, might require a slight change in thinking from C# but nothing revolutionary - using the interactive interpreter will allow you to pick it up in a day IMO.
Learning how to use the datastore and figuring out other GAE specific API's (blobstore, image, mail) will probably be more work (it's specifics like transactions/groups, consistency modes ...) but you can figure that stuff out as you go/when you need it in your app.
One thing to note - recently announced pricing scheme makes Python a bad choice on GAE ATM because it cannot handle requests currently and this leads to one "instance" per request. This is also true for Go ATM (as far as I know). JVM OTOH can handle ~20 simultaneous requests per instance if I remember the mailing list conversations correctly. And you will be paying per instance/hour. This makes JVM the most practical choice if you plan on publishing your application in the near future.
Also using JVM you could use Scala (a new/cool language) and a framework like Lift which should theoretically allow you to port your code/avoid lock-in (disclaimer : I say theoretically because I'm only starting out with Scala and have no practical experience with Lift).
So I would recommend to look around the mailing list and see what other people are saying about the recent changes.
Personally I would prefer Python because is much, much more mature than Go.
In the past, I learnt, the hard way, what are the risks of choosing a not-so-mature technology.
Warning, I am biased to recommend Python because I like it but you should also be careful because I heard many complains about how much support does Google put on Python-App-Engine. People are asking for years to upgrade Python support and nobody hears them.
These being said, probably Java would be a smarter choice, especially because you are used to C#.
Go is still experimental on the GAE - so maybe not the best platform to learn a new language. Python is definitely a good choice.
Considering a new language do not forget that by choosing Java you get the JVM which allows not only Java code but also oder languages like: Scala, Grails, Clojure, JRuby any many others.
Python is since long supported on GAE - lots of tested information, infrastructure, etc. Go is new to GAE.
I would decide more on the language level. Coming from C#, choosing Python you go a bit more "high-level", whereas choosing Go goes more into the "low-level" direction. More low-level control, but also more concern about that. Choose Python if your interest is on application development, and Go if it's more about systems development. One important aspect for me would be that Go has actor-style concurrency built in, though I don't know how well supported this on GAE will be.
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Closed 12 years ago.
over the years i have been employed in a permanent position with firms that did their development work in Windows SDK, VC++, and most recently Java; in my own eyes, I am language independent.
Should I move from Java to Delphi (assuming pay-scale remains unchanged)?
I'm concerned because, for the most part, the net presents a relatively bleak picture for this particular skill.
The TIOBE Index is an often cited source for estimating the popularity of programming languages. Java, C and C++ have been the top 3 for a very long time. As you can see, Delphi is a lot lower on the list (at position 10 at this moment). (Ofcourse you should not take the TIOBE Index as an absolute measure, but it does indicate something).
This can be an advantage as well as a disadvantage. There are probably a lot more Java and C++ jobs than there are Delphi jobs, but there are also a lot more Java and C++ programmers than Delphi programmers, so it's harder to stand out as a Java or C++ programmer among the masses. Having a specialism that not many people have, such as for example Delphi, may help you get a higher salary, though you'll have to search harder to find Delphi jobs.
Depends on what your goals are, but I believe that for regular apps the future bears name "GWT", i.e. Java. (I consider Delphi a history for quite a while, but that's JMO.)
It's definitely worth learning Delphi. A lot of software's still being written in it, stuff which people use and rely on. A lot of companies prefer to keep quiet about it, though, since it presents such a major competitive advantage over other, more popular languages.
For example, you ever work with VOIP on chat programs? In my experience, there are two basic categories: Skype, and The Other Stuff. Skype "just works", while the others tend to be very glitchy and unreliable. And it's no coincidence that Skype's written in Delphi while (AFAIK) none of the other chat programs are. That's just one example among many.
It never hurts to pick up another skill, but I haven't seen any Delphi job listings anywhere. I suspect you would be better suited picking up a new language/framework/platform with more "legs", such as WPF, JavaFX, Objective-C/Cocoa, ActionScript/Flex, or something of the like.
As a technical move, it's probably a good one -- Delphi is better thought out and more enjoyable to use. From a career perspective, however, you're probably right -- Delphi has been rather marginalized for some time now, and doesn't seem to be in the process of making a huge comeback.
I was using Delphi before I swtiched to C++ and then to Java. I don't think that moving from Java to Delphi is wise idea. Why so?
Java is widely used
It's easier to find Java job
More years of Java -> Better chance getting senior position job (java oriented)
Java is definitelly richer as for libraries
Java rocks in enterprise sphere, Delphi doesn't
It's easier to find resources for Java - from tutorials for beginners to manuals for professionals
Java runs on other operating systems by default, remember? (I know Lazarus, but can't compare port to nativeness)
From my exprience, more experienced programmers and software engineers kind of condemn Delphi programmers ...
Java is suitable for larger projects (means bigger money)
The only good reason for preferring Delphi over Java I can actually think of is making Windows GUI application. But since we have .NET and wonderful WPF, Delphi doesn't score even here.
You make your choice, but personally, I'd never switch back to Delphi (ok maybe if payment was too good to reject:))
The way you phrase your question makes me think you've got a job offer already for a Delphi developer position. If the language is the only thing stopping you, I say you should go for it.
It will add experience with another language to your resume besides being fun (learning something new). Just make sure you keep your skills in Java and C++ reasonably up to date when or if you need to move on.
Why limit yourself to one language?
A major problem with Delphi is that some people consider it an "easy" language. So there are Delphi programmers that can drag some controls to a form without any real coding knowledge. So if you are a good developer and skilled in Delphi, you won't have that much trouble finding a job.
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Closed 10 years ago.
I've been doing web application development for the last 3 years in PHP. I'm now on the verge to give Java a go. My last use of the language was nearly 8 years ago and was mostly academic.
I'm reasonably well acquainted with PHP's object model (version 5) and I have almost exclusively been coding in OO. I would now like to transport that experience and use it to develop in Java.
Where I'm coming from:
linux as a desktop and server
Vim/gVim + plugins as an editor
MySql for db
apache httpd
experience with a bunch of PHP frameworks, Zend+Doctrine being the ones I use most
What I've garnered so far about a move to Java:
I need an IDE: IntellijIDEA, NetBeans or Eclipse
I need to pick a development framework. Some recurrent names: Spring MVC, stripes, wicket.
Now I need some insight that could help make this transition smoother. But from the way people talk about it, Java seems to be an entirely new beast with its own ecosystem. It sounds as though moving to Ruby or Python would actually be easier, which is curious since, when I look at it, Java conceptually seems the closest to PHP, albeit stricter and precompiled.
As weird as this may sound, very few people have publicly documented their experience of such moves. I have searched google, amazon and stackoverflow for similar questions and the results leave to desire. I just can't believe that I would need to start the same as a newbie if I wanted to be productive as a web developer in Java fast.
Anybody is welcome to respond, but I somewhat think that people with some valuable experience in both languages would enrich this discussion the most.
What helped you get going quickly in Java?
What concepts are omnipresent in Java and absent from PHP and vice versa?
Some gotchas for PHP developers going Java.
How long before you felt the transition was complete?
I wouldn't try to learn an IDE at the same time as learning a language. An easier transition would be to stick to your shell and habitual text editor, and use the following shell-friendly tools:
ant, for organising your project, running automated test suites, incremental compiles
BeanShell for interactive testing, trying things out quickly
A quick trick: javap from the commandline will give method signatures for any class in the standard library. Similar to php -r but gives more information since Java is typed.
The online documentation for Java is precise, professional, and consistent in tone and format. Unlike in PHP where all of the functions are in one flat namespace, the standard libraries in Java are class hierarchies. You've got to know your way around that standard library, which means knowing hierarchies + responsibilities: for example you've got to know that java.util.List is a subinterface of java.util.Collection with the addition of a concept of ordered entries. With that information in your head, a google search for java.util.List will take you to the Javadoc for the class, and the Javadoc will tell you exact method signatures and link you to a selection of concrete implementations.
Some miscellaneous distinctions:
Strings are sequences of characters rather than sequences of bytes. Absolutely the right way of doing it.
Systems produce and consume streams (of bytes or characters) rather than byte buffers. For example, if you wanted to filter the output in PHP, a standard practice is to ask ob_get_contents for a byte buffer then to transform the whole buffer. In Java, you add a filter to your servlet that transforms the output a byte or a character at a time. It's a bit imposing to work with initially but it's simpler and more Lego-like when you get used to it - your stream processor doesn't have to know where things come from and where they go.
Almost everything useful is an interface, and creating an instance of an interface can be tricky, non-standardised, and not always well-documented. In PHP, you can get up and running with XML with new DOMDocument(). In Java, org.w3c.dom.Document is an interface, so new() won't work. Javadoc is very precise about how interface instances behave once they come into existence, but it can be quite coy and prudish when you're trying to find out how an object is actually born. Very often, you'll have to look for tutorials and code examples and copy-paste a piece of boilerplate that gives you an instance of DOMDocument or java.sql.Connection or whatever. One reason frameworks like Spring are popular is that they separate out the ugly object-creation code and present you with a world where interface implementations are just magically there.
I actually switched in the opposite direction. I found that Java works very well in a large company where you might be working on a single component, handing it off to someone else who integrates that component into a larger system, which is then packaged and handed off to a separate operations team - that's where all this indirection and configurability (FactoryBuilderFactory type abstractions, web.xml files, etc) makes sense and does something useful. In a small company where the programmers are the ops personnel, Java is a lot more work. With Java, you'll have to get used to concepts like starting up the Java process, monitoring the Java process to make sure it stays up, monitoring the Java process to make sure that it doesn't go into a coma where it's alive but not responding, shutting down and restarting the Java process with minimal disruption when you're updating code, etc, etc. If you have separate ops personnel, that's fine, it's their job, they're very good at it. If you're a programmer, babysitting a Java process can be distracting and difficult to do well.
Start with the Java Tutorial
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/getStarted/index.html
Then go buy Head First Java
http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596004651
It will get you going pretty quickly in the language which is essential regardless of what you want to do.
Strictly speaking, you don't need an IDE to work in Java. I've been coding heavily in Java for well over a decade (and heavily on other stuff for over 25 years), and I don't much like IDEs. Perhaps that implicit indicator of my age is part of the issue :-) It's a trade-off, like anything else.
I'll plug Stripes as a nice simple framework, but mostly that's because it's relatively small and limited in scope. The large frameworks like Spring are "kitchen sink" ecosystems, and learning Java with one of those frameworks may smooth some of the difficult parts but leave other basic aspects mysterious. Again, it's a matter of personal preference.
It's good to have somebody around who knows the language. Oh, and to that point, make a friend of the Java API documentation. As platforms go, the Java API has its ups and downs but for the most part the documentation is at least pretty thorough and pretty accurate.
You'll also want to get really familiar with JSP and its relationship to Java and Java web service architectures, because that'll be what you'll relate to your PHP experience most directly (I'd think).
The best move I made was from Java to PHP.
Beware of complexity. Primarily, the key to great software is simplicity, and that is why PHP combined with a good framework kills Java.
With Java, you risk becoming a slave to your servlet container and framework. Choose the simplest most flexible framework. Controls and custom tags are the devil. You'll waste days learning things that were designed to make development quicker, but are ultimately too complex and inflexible. Java will slow development due to: complexity, compilation, and static types. You'll come to loathe null pointer exceptions.
Edit: Tools aside, Java and PHP are very similarly structured "C" style languages. Much more so than Python or Ruby. It is the static typing and complex tools that make Java so foreign.
I recommend hitting up JavaBat at here
It will give you some good ideas. It took me 1 solid year in a professional setting to get a very firm grasp on Java and I have been able to move into other OO languages quite easily once I had the thoughts beaten into me.
This appears to be a bit of an old post, but hey...
I moved from C# to Java and I've just started a role and am moving from Java to PHP...
First off: Java is awesome :)
for your IDE get Eclipse, once you get used to it, you never have to leave the IDE (apart from SQL bits). It manages projects really well, you can download alsorts of plugins, such as SVN plugins. It allows you to run a Tomcat server within Eclipse and it will output errors straight to the Eclipse console.
for the framework, I used Struts and Tiles and Torque for the ORM, took me a while to get my head around them, but once we made friends, I can't imagine any other way of developing. Although I imagine for a small project it would be a lot of overhead!
agreed with an above post - get HEADFIRST JAVA, thats how I learnt and I used it for lots of other languages, they have a visual method of learning thats alot easier than pure textbooks - well for me anyway. I was up and running with in a day and confident within a couple of weeks I guess - but always learning :)
yip Java is strict, but you come to love it, for me moving to loose 'ol PHP is a bit wierd.
you will also need to download Tomcat to run your Java bits, its easy as to get running.
Java organises all your classes very nicely, none of this 'require_once(some_text_file.php)' rubbish, just 'import myClass' and off you go.
one of the things that annoys me is, there is no way of telling which JAR libraries you are NOT using, so after a couple of years working on a site, your lib folder can get a bit messy - specially if mulitple people are removing and adding functionality.
I could go on.
Paul
For my case, I only dealt with lot of procedural coding on the php, so jumping to Java, not only did I find everything to be more verbose and less forgiving than php (but now I know why it must be this way, and I love Java a lot) but learning to organizing my code in classes and also learning the eclipse IDE took about 1.5 years of just tinkering, trial & error, making stuff on my own (mainly swing applications).
I guess just creating stuff on your own, utilizing the vast amount of Java libraries out there to build your own stuff is fun is the fastest way. Also I think I could've saved more time by reading the java sun tutorials thoroughly. Even more time saving is making sure you've done a thorough search for libraries that prevent "reinventing the wheel".
Good luck!