We Keep Coding

Extending/Inheriting Tomcat Projects

We are developing webapps with Eclipse + Tomcat plugin. We recently started a new app which will run on Facebook and StudiVZ (FB competitor in Germany). Since the functionality of the app will be 95% the same we split the code into separate Eclipse projects (app-core, app-facebook, app-vz). The -core project is source-linked into the -facebook and -vz projects in Eclipse. We are also using Hudson for CI and made ant scripts that import the code from the -core project before building. So basically we tried to inherit on a project level.
The described method has some flaws:
Versioning is complicated
The -core project does not run standalone, which makes automatic testing partly impossible
We need to modify some models where the -core projects classes depend on
Other problems that make me think this is not the best solution
Does anyone have suggestions for a better solution?

There are a wealth of build tools available for Java that address dependency management and versioning specifically. Many of these integrate with Hudson and Eclipse.
I'd suggest looking at Maven and how it does dependency management as a good starting point. Even if you don't use Maven itself, many of the solutions out there build on Maven's dependency management mechanism. Something like Apache Ivy allows you to use maven dependency management, but still use your own custom Ant scripts; whereas something like Gradle is wholesale replacement.

You should be able to split your project into 3 or more parts and then establish dependencies via Java Build Path. You need to clean up the dependencies between the projects. If you need to configure your core components depending on whether it is a -facebook or a -vz project, you might need to separate configuration, maybe even use Spring or similar dependency injection framework.
When trying to introduce reuse into web-based Java projects, usually the problems arise in the UI code. Not many frameworks were built with this approach in mind.

I don't use/hate Eclipse[1], but can point to how we deal with a similar problem.
We use Maven with IntelliJ. In particular, both of these support modules which have defined internal dependencies. In your case it could be -fb and -vz modules depending on core, or you can split core into smaller parts (such as DAO, business logic, etc.).
When compiling, deliverables of "upper" modules would be used to build "lower" modules.
Let's go over points/flaws you have raised:
versioning is no longer a problem as everything sits under the same root of Subversion/GIT/VCS of your choice
Why is that a problem? Certainly this shouldn't be an issue for unit tests as how I understand TDD, these should not require complex environments. For automated tests, you would have to test the core API (as this is the interface between core and everything else, right?) hence this shouldn't require any fronted stuff?
you need to explain your other points to tell why you don't like it
It is against Geneva convention to ask a developer to use anything other than IDE of his/her choice.

Best way to manage multi-module projects?

I have a medium size project split into 3 modules: Core, plugins (in short its an interpretation layer), and implementation. There are a few global dependencies, and module specific dependencies. There is a custom ant target for generating javadoc excluding the implementation (for obvious reasons). This is stored in an public online SVN repository and therefor needs to be independent of any machine sans the JRE
Right now I'm using the built in NetBeans project management, and it sucks, probably mainly do the fact that the project management system was not designed for modules. Lack of a global library set (you can import a library specific to your nb installation, but then it doesn't get updated), lack of auto resolving of library dependencies (dependency on a project means the project and its dependencies), lack of an independent multi-project formatting style (either tied to profile specific "Global options" or individually setup and synced module-specific options), and other things make managing my project a pain.
When I was experimenting with IDEA, one of the things I loved was its project management. It was close to what I wanted, but like most things in IDEA could of been simpler. However the IDE itself was bad (not up for debate), so I switched back to NetBeans. And Maven looks bad, both from having to traverse its file structure manually and general opinion.
Are their better options out there that can be stored in a standard SVN repository with limited tools to use, are pretty easy to use for 1-3 developers, and for 2-5 modules? It must be able to handle java, and (in the perfect world) integration with NetBeans.

Honestly maven is your best bet. I wouldn't knock it you haven't actually tried it yet. It tends to be a very divisive technology, but those who love it love it for a damn good reason. If you are someone who prefers to keep your hands off the build script/files after you initially set it up, and it looks like you are given you were using Netbeans' built in projects which generate an ant build.xml behind the scenes, then you should just try maven and see what happens.
I'm not sure why you think you need to "traverse the directory structure" with maven if you are in netbeans. See this screenshot for an example of what it looks like. You don't ever see src/main/java or target/ or anything on the file system (unless you need to).
(source: netbeans.org)
If you use a maven multi-module project, you'll get the modularity you are looking for within Netbeans as well. If you want a sample, go checkout an open source project that has tons of modules and load it in Netbeans and play around with it: http://camel.apache.org/source.html

Build system that allows sharing modules amongst different binaries

I'm trying to choose the most appropriate build system to work in enterprise with a common source repository, emphasizing sharing of common code. I'd like the source hierarchy to look something like this:
- src
- java
- common
- net
- database
- team1
- team2
- team3
- lib
- tests
- java
- common
- net
- database
- team1
- team2
- team3
- lib
The goal is to have a build system where team[1-3] can have independent builds that explicitly specify their dependencies. Dependencies might look like:
- team1
- common/net
- team3/lib
- team2
- common/database
- team3
So, for example, the build for team1 would include everything within the team1, common/net, and team3/lib; but nothing else. Ideally, tests would be integrated in the same fashion (testing team1 would run tests for team1, common/net, and team3/lib).
I'm currently using Ant, but haven't found a sane way to manage a hierarchy like this. I started to look at Maven 2 for its ability to manage a dependency hierarchy, but it seems to want full-fledged projects for each module. That wouldn't be a problem, but it seems to force me into a directory structure that does not map well to the traditional java package hierarchy. It seems like I might be able to do what I want with buildr using an alternative layout, but I'm worried that might prove to be brittle.
Can someone recommend something that might work for me?

I think you actually have three issues here.
How to layout your project so that the artifacts make sense.
How to best handle the sharing of these artifacts for each project.
How to handle the loss in productivity while converting the development team to use the new project structure.
For the first issue, try to use Maven conventions wherever possible and organize the project into multiple artifacts. If the artifacts should be nested under a parent, do so. Start off with the simplest artifact which has no dependencies and work your way through the code.
I'm not sure why you believe the layout won't support the traditional Java hierarchy? It should work, especially if you use parent poms.
Obviously the second issue can become quite a handful depending upon how you handle the first one. I would err on the side of creating more artifacts instead of fewer and using a repository manager like Nexus or Artifactory to manage them. At least that way, your team's builds can rely on pre-built and tested jars by hitting your repository to pull down the latest SNAPSHOT or RELEASE of the jar they are working with.
For the third, make sure you're using IDEs that have Maven support. If you're stuck using something like Rational Application Developer 7.0.x or an IDE based on something less than Eclipse 3.4, then you won't be able to use the M2Eclipse plugin. Without M2Eclipse, the developers will have to jump through some manual hoops which are not ideal. Netbeans 6.7 and 6.8 have very good Maven support.

As you say, Maven 2 is the preferred option for your case.
Maven folder structure is not madnatory - it is configurable, if you consider it unsiutable. However, I think it is a good structure that you can follow without remorse.
You can use a repository manager so that people who use some dependencies don't necessarily need to checkout the projects they depend on.

I started to look at Maven 2 for its ability to manage a dependency hierarchy, but it seems to want full-fledged projects for each module.
That's one way to do it. Alternatively, a multi-module Maven project can be organized like this:
project
module-1
src
main
....
test
....
pom.xml
module-2
src
main
....
test
....
pom.xml
...
pom.xml
where each pom.xml could also refer to modules defined by other trees. BTW, the Eclipse maven plugin supports this approach as well as the more common one-module-per-project approach.

I'm currently using Ant, but haven't found a sane way to manage a hierarchy like this.
This is surprising as Ant (+Ivy?) gives you all the flexibility you want.
I started to look at Maven 2 for its ability to manage a dependency hierarchy, but it seems to want full-fledged projects for each module.
If by this you mean one pom.xml per module, then that's correct.
That wouldn't be a problem, but it seems to force me into a directory structure that does not map well to the traditional java package hierarchy.
Yes, Maven comes with some conventions, the project directory structure being one of them. This is (a bit) configurable though but I don't think you'll be able to match the wanted layout (with tests and sources into separated hierarchies). And actually, I would strongly advice to use defaults if you go for Maven, you should adopt its philosophy, it will save you a lot, really a lot, of pain (not even mentioning that some plugins might use these default in an hard coded way).
To be honest, I don't really understand what you mean by a directory structure that does not map well to the traditional java package hierarchy. First, Maven is perfect for Java, so this doesn't make any sense to me. Second, and this might be more subjective, your layout (with separated tests and sources trees) doesn't look traditional at all to me. Maybe you should clarify what you mean exactly by traditional...
It seems like I might be able to do what I want with buildr using an alternative layout, but I'm worried that might prove to be brittle
I don't know buildr really well so I can't say much about it but I know it is indeed more flexible. That said, if Ant doesn't give you satisfaction in terms of flexibility, then I don't see why buildr would be better.
And don't forget that buildr and Ant+Ivy have much smaller communities compared to Maven. Don't underestimate this, this might become a real concern.
Personally, I would go for Maven and reconsider your layout. But let's say I'm biased.

What you are going for is going to give you lots of trouble in the long-term... each standalone component should really be made into its own project with its own repository, otherwise, you can get into lots of issues with changes in one component breaking the other components and updating taking excessively long. I strongly recommend that you make each component into its own project and using Maven2 to build.

You can do it with Buildr. You could live for some time with it.
Of course, like most people on the thread, I would rather not recommend this approach.
You can also use base_dir to change the base directory of the projects.

How to modularize a (large) Java App?

I have a rather large (several MLOC) application at hand that I'd like to split up into more maintainable separate parts. Currently the product is comprised of about 40 Eclipse projects, many of them having inter-dependencies. This alone makes a continuous build system unfeasible, because it would have to rebuild very much with each checkin.
Is there a "best practice" way of how to
identify parts that can immediately be separated
document inter-dependencies visually
untangle the existing code
handle "patches" we need to apply to libraries (currently handled by putting them in the classpath before the actual library)
If there are (free/open) tools to support this, I'd appreciate pointers.
Even though I do not have any experience with Maven it seems like it forces a very modular design. I wonder now whether this is something that can be retrofitted iteratively or if a project that was to use it would have to be layouted with modularity in mind right from the start.
Edit 2009-07-10
We are in the process of splitting out some core modules using Apache Ant/Ivy. Really helpful and well designed tool, not imposing as much on you as maven does.
I wrote down some more general details and personal opinion about why we are doing that on my blog - too long to post here and maybe not interesting to everyone, so follow at your own discretion: www.danielschneller.com

Using OSGi could be a good fit for you. It would allow to create modules out of the application. You can also organize dependencies in a better way. If you define your interfaces between the different modules correctly, then you can use continuous integration as you only have to rebuild the module that you affected on check-in.
The mechanisms provided by OSGi will help you untangle the existing code. Because of the way the classloading works, it also helps you handle the patches in an easier way.
Some concepts of OSGi that seem to be a good match for you, as shown from wikipedia:
The framework is conceptually divided into the following areas:
Bundles - Bundles are normal jar components with extra manifest headers.
Services - The services layer connects bundles in a dynamic way by offering a publish-find-bind model for plain old Java objects(POJO).
Services Registry - The API for management services (ServiceRegistration, ServiceTracker and ServiceReference).
Life-Cycle - The API for life cycle management (install, start, stop, update, and uninstall bundles).
Modules - The layer that defines encapsulation and declaration of dependencies (how a bundle can import and export code).
Security - The layer that handles the security aspects by limiting bundle functionality to pre-defined capabilities.

First: good luck & good coffee. You'll need both.
I once had a similiar problem. Legacy code with awful circular dependencies, even between classes from different packages like org.example.pkg1.A depends on org.example.pk2.B and vice versa.
I started with maven2 and fresh eclipse projects. First I tried to identify the most common functionalities (logging layer, common interfaces, common services) and created maven projects. Each time I was happy with a part, I deployed the library to the central nexus repository so that it was almost immediately available for other projects.
So I slowly worked up through the layers. maven2 handled the dependencies and the m2eclipse plugin provided a helpful dependency view. BTW - it's usually not too difficult to convert an eclipse project into a maven project. m2eclipse can do it for you and you just have to create a few new folders (like src/main/java) and adjust the build path for source folders. Takes just a minute or two. But expect more difficulties, if your project is an eclipse plugin or rcp application and you want maven not only to manage artifacts but also to build and deploy the application.
To opinion, eclipse, maven and nexus (or any other maven repository manager) are a good basis to start. You're lucky, if you have a good documentation of the system architecture and this architecture is really implemented ;)

I had a similar experience in a small code base (40 kloc). There are no °rules":
compiled with and without a "module" in order to see it's usage
I started from "leaf modules", modules without other dependencies
I handled cyclic dependencies (this is a very error-prone task)
with maven there is a great deal with documentation (reports) that can be deployed
in your CI process
with maven you can always see what uses what both in the site both in netbeans (with a
very nice directed graph)
with maven you can import library code in your codebase, apply source patches and
compile with your products (sometimes this is very easy sometimes it is very
difficult)
Check also Dependency Analyzer:
(source: javalobby.org)
Netbeans:
(source: zimmer428.net)

Maven is painful to migrate to for an existing system. However it can cope with 100+ module projects without much difficulty.

The first thing you need to decide is what infra-structure you will move to. Should it be a lot of independently maintained modules (which translates to individual Eclipse projects) or will you consider it a single chunk of code which is versioned and deployed as a whole. The first is well suited for migrating to a Maven like build environment - the latter for having all the source code in at once.
In any case you WILL need a continuous integration system running. Your first task is to make the code base build automatically, so you can let your CI system watch over your source repository and rebuild it whenyou change things. I decided for a non-Maven approach here, and we focus on having an easy Eclipse environment so I created a build enviornment using ant4eclipse and Team ProjectSet files (which we use anyway).
The next step would be getting rid of the circular dependencies - this will make your build simpler, get rid of Eclipse warnings, and eventually allow you to get to the "checkout, compile once, run" stage. This might take a while :-( When you migrate methods and classes, do not MOVE them, but extract or delegate them and leave their old name lying around and mark them deprecated. This will separate your untangeling with your refactoring, and allow code "outside" your project to still work with the code inside your project.
You WILL benefit from a source repository which allows for moving files, and keeping history. CVS is very weak in this regard.

I wouldn't recommend Maven for a legacy source code base. It could give you many headaches just trying to adapt everything to work with it.
I suppose what you need is to do an architectural layout of your project. A tool might help, but the most important part is to organize a logical view of the modules.

It's not free but Structure101 will give you as good as you will get in terms of tool support for hitting all your bullet points. But for the record I'm biased, so you might want to check out SonarJ and Lattix too. ;-)

How many multiple "Eclipse Projects" is considered too excessive for one actual development project?

I'm currently working on a project that contains many different Eclipse projects referencing each other to make up one large project. Is there a point where a developer should ask themselves if they should rethink the way their development project is structured?
NOTE: My project currently contains 25+ different Eclipse projects.

My general rule of thumb is I would create a new project for every reusable component. So for example if I have some isolated functionality that can be packaged say as a jar, I would create a new project so I can build,package and distribute the component independently.
Also, if there are certain projects that you do not need to make frequent changes to, you can build them only when required and keep them "closed" in eclipse to save time on indexing, etc. Even if you think that a certain component is not reusable, as long as it is separated from the rest of the code base in terms of logic/concerns you may be well served by just separating it out. Sometimes seemingly specific code might be reusable in another project or in a future version of the same project.

When compiled, a project would typically result in a jar. So if your application consists of potentially reusable components, it is ok to use a project for each.
I'm a big fan of using a lot of projects, I feel that this "breaks down" large things beyond what I can do with packages, and helps me orient and navigate.
Of course, if you're developing Eclipse plug-ins, everything would be a project anyway.
The only thing I would watch out for has to do with your source-control and it's ability to handle moves of files between projects. Subclipse had been giving me trouble with it, or maybe it's my SVN server that did.

If your project has that many sub-projects, or modules, needed to actually compose your final artifact then it is time to look at having something like Maven and setting up a multi-module project. It will a) allow you to work on each module independently without ide worries and allow easy setup in your ide (and others' IDEs) through the mvn eclipse:eclipse goal. In addition, when building your entire top level project, maven will be able to derive from list of dependencies you have described what modules need to be built in what order.
Here's a quick link via google and a link to the book Maven: The Definitive Guide, which will explain things in much better detail in chapter 6 (once you have the basics).
This will also force your project to not be explicitly tied to Eclipse. Being able to build independent from an ide means that any Joe Schmoe can come along and easily work with your code base using whatever tools he/she needs.

Create jars for the projects you don't work in often. That should greatly reduce the clutter. If you work on all the projects often, then you can add targets to your build that will jar up the respective projects for you, which condenses everything down to one file that you can then include on the class path.

An additional method is to create many different workspaces. The benefit of separate workspaces is that you can remove some of the visual clutter/ performance overhead of having lots of projects. You can use targets to jar up all of you projects and put them in a repository so you can reference them in each workspace.

At a former job the entire application was more then +170 projects. While it was rarely necessary to have all projects checked out locally, even the 30-40 projects constantly in our scope made reindexing, etc. very slow.

Yeesh. One Project for each Project. If you are using reusable projects, make them into a library for heavens sake. Break the none re-usable projects into packages, that's what they are there for.

That's a hard question and answers span from having one eclipse project at all to having one eclipse project for every single class.
My bottomline:
You can have too few projects,
and never too many (of course use
automation e.g. mvn eclipse:eclipse)
Use
-Declipse.useProjectReferences=true/false
when using maven to switch workspace
mode btw jar and project
dependencies
Use mvn release plugin to generate
consecutive releases (automatic
version increase)
Multiple projects gives you
independent versioning which is
extremely important. E.g. one dev may work on a new version of a
module while you still depends on
the previous one and you at some
point decide to upgrade to the newer
version(possibly by increasing its version in pom.xml dependency section). Or in other scenario if one
project contains a bug you downgrade
to its previous version.
Multiple projects makes you think
about the architecture more than if
you have just packages.
Multiple projects generally make
architectural problems evident more
than if you have just one project.
Anyone would like to comment on
this?
You never know if you project
evolves into OSGI/SOA/EDA where you
need separation.
Even if you're 100% sure that you
projects will be deployed as one jar
in an old way in a single jvm, it
still does not hurt(mvn assembly
plugin) to have multiple eclipse
projects for logically independent
pieces of code
BTW, the project I work on is divided into 24 eclipse projects.

Hell, we have more than 100. Projects don't cost anything.