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I am looking to start work on a brand-new project, something I've been thinking about for a while as my first independent sellable project.
It's broadly speaking a web-based service application, and my first choice, server-language is quite easy... I know Java pretty well from working on Java web-apps in the past.
However my experience doing web-apps involved JSP, Servlets and JSTL... I know the ideas behind newer technologies like Hibernate/Spring but have never used them. So we wrote our own DAOs, handled AJAX by writing special mini-JSP pages that generated XML/JSON pages, etc.
I'm not hugely into the idea that Spring/Hibernate are the 'only' or 'right' way to do any Java web-project, but they are widely used. On the other hand, not only would trying to learn these increase initial development time, but I'd be using my learning attempts to build a production system.
I remember one of Joel's early articles said (I'll paraphrase since I can't find it)
"regardless what's cool, always use
the technologies that the lead
developer (or dev team?) knows best"
I wondered what people thought about that?
ps: should this be CW?
I work as a consultant, and I've seen a lot of projects where the devs started out with servlets+JSP because that's what they knew, and it's pretty simple to get started with. However, it gives the team an opportunity/excuse to write a platform of their own, which is more fun than using someone else's and just writing an application.
As the project grows, the team reinvents more and more wheels, quite a few of which end up square. That's where I enter the picture - adding new stuff to this semi-flexible platform has become so complicated that the devs can't keep up adding features and fixing bugs without calling in reinforcements. Just to add insult to injury, the internal devs are usually the ones who get assigned to do the boring bug fixes because bug fixes require more knowledge of the gory entrails of what has become the team's proprietary persistence-and-web framework, and so those gosh-danged consultants get to do the new, fun stuff.
Now, you shouldn't use a framework just because people have been regurgitating each other's blog posts about the awesomeness of it, but you should also realize that there are very good reasons why those frameworks exist (and why they're used). If you haven't used any web frameworks at all, I'd recommend you to take Spring MVC, Wicket or whatever for a test drive. They don't solve all problems, and they do cause some of their own, but the grand total is usually a productivity increase, especially if you're making advanced user interfaces.
I have been on projects where plain JDBC has been quite sufficient for persistence, and where no more advanced web frameworks than servlets+JSP have been needed, but those projects are a minority. Without having used a framework or two, you'll never whether your project is part of that minority that doesn't need one, or if it is part of the grand majority that does.
Don't try everything all at once - take on one new technology at a time.
Beware the lure of cool new frameworks! I'm currently hacking on a tiny little web app that just has a login, a few mostly static pages, and a few forms to request some information by email. It would have taken me maybe two days to do as traditional Servlet/JSP in MVC style. Instead, since there was slack in the schedule, I decided to use this project to get up to speed in Spring, Spring MVC, and Spring WebFlow. While it's quite possible that I'm just dense, it took me several weeks to get my head around the right way of doing things, I'm still not totally confident that I'm doing everything correctly, and the application is still not done. Fortunately, due to slack, I'm not in danger of the overall project schedule slipping, but I'm always asking myself if I'm going to have to scrap it and start over.
I have learned my lesson, though: next time, I won't be the one pushing a new framework unless its one I've used for production projects before. That said, I'm glad I now understand Spring (or at least I think I do) and will not hesitate to use it again next time.
So how would I learn a new framework next time? If there's a project lead (in this case I'm a project lead of a team of one, no help there) I'd use the framework that they put in place. If there isn't, or if I want to learn a framework that the project lead isn't using, I'd use it for a side project on my own time. Learning is good. Putting company work at risk by throwing untested technology at it is not so good.
I can say for sure that Spring is worth considering. It gives you as much as you can take, but it doesn't bother you with things you don't need.
For example, at the very beginning you probably need dependency injection only. Then you'll need help with database interactions and transaction management. Then you'll decide to apply MVC patter to your web-application. After that may be you'll realize that components of your system are to send JMS to each other. And so on and so forth.
For all this cases Spring has it's own simple, intuitive, light-weight solution.
When starting a new project limit the number of unfamiliar technologies / frameworks to use. Every framework takes time to learn and every framework has issues especially if not implemented correctly.
If you can I would recommend you look into the Play framework. It is a web framework for Java that focuses on developer productivity. You can choose to use Spring / Hibernate if you want but you are not bound by that. It has a very easy to learn implementation and you should be able to get a good idea within a day of playing around with it if it is what you are looking for.
It depends what the customer wants (in the world of consultancy).
You have to learn new technologies. Does the customer wants to pay for that?
Not all the caveats of the new ones are known, whereas the older ones are proven a lot more.
Of course, if everybody thought like this we would all be stuck with VB these days. You have to look for the right balance, and learn a lot yourself too so you can get an objective view on the technologies available, their up and downsides.
i personally would definitely recommend looking into spring, i've found it's saved me countless hours. hibernate is also useful if you need an ORM layer (and spring has nice integrations with hibernate too). they're certainly not the 'only' or even the 'right' way to do things (that's quite subjective) but they have both saved me time and effort, especially spring.
There is one major trap with any unknown technology. You do not know where the dragons are, and you do not know how to rub the new technology "with the hairs".
Learning that will take time, and you need to have that in your estimates. Also your estimates will most likely be too low...
I'm fairly new to programming and new to java, but I'd like to jump in the deep end with a little database driven website project. I've read quite a lot about requirements in the 'real world' requesting experience with Spring and Hibernate, so I have those installed on netbeans and a project created (if I hit run I get the default spring page). Now I just need a little guidance as to where to start designing my app (please tell me if I'm getting in a bit too over my head for a beginner!).
Should I start off with my classes? - create all my classes as they map to my database tables and decide which attributes and methods each will require?
Can anyone suggest any good books for maybe.. making a java based website from scratch (i.e. from design right through to deployment) that might be useful for a beginner?
Any help appreciated thanks.
Edit: since posting this I've found a brilliant book that fits my needs just right to get started. Firstly I tried both spring in action and hibernate in action - but found both to be a bit too heavy for my novice mind. Instead I got the Java EE 5 Development with Netbeans 6 book https://www.packtpub.com/java-ee5-development-with-netbeans-6/book and its been a great help. If you use netbeans and are in a similar position to me, I'd say pick it up!
Too over your head? Depends on what you hope to accomplish. Are you trying to create a revenue-generating site to which users will be asked to trust credit card numbers and other sensitive information? Then yeah, you're getting way ahead of yourself. Is this a tool for personal use or a toy you're throwing together primarily as a learning experience? Then I say "Pffffft!" to the notion of over-the-head-ness. Go for it.
As to where to start, I say start with whatever portion of this beast is clearest to you. Have a solid idea of what the database is going to look like? Then start with it and its supporting classes. Have a clear vision of what the guts of the code are supposed to do? Start there. Etc. And if all things are equal, I'd say start at the bottom with the database layer and work your way up -- but that's just me.
And as for the books, can't help you there, but I'm sure somebody can.
I suggest to take a look at web application frameworks such as Spring's Roo or Grails. Sadly I have no experience with Roo. But I do have some experience with Grails.
With Grails you will be working mostly with Groovy, a language similar to Python, but still using the JVM. You'll still have the option to use Java anywhere you like (I think). Grails (and maybe Roo too?) manages Spring and Hibernate for you.
As for books on Grails, I recommend "Grails in Action". I have read a little of "Grails 1.1 Web Application Development" and it also seems to be a good reference. BTW, netbeans supports Grails too.
Not trying to gut your goals, but if you are wondering whether to start with your classes, I would suggest you work on your programming skills more.
I'd suggest taking a look at Larman's "Applying UML & Patterns: An Introduction to Object-Oriented Analysis and Design and Iterative Development (3rd Edition)" as well as a book on relational database theory (you need to know how to model databases properly.)
You can try your hand at building a database driven web app, and it might give you an insight into how to do it, but you need have some programming maturity to take those skills into the non-trivial.
This is a completely personal opinion so please take it with a grain of salt: Before someone tackles the building of a data-driven application with the purpose of eventually being able to use it in non-trivial projects, that person needs to have a good exposure to programming (by good I mean a LOT, say 1-2 introductory courses, 1-2 intermediate and at least one junior-level course, perhaps a total of 15-30 credits.) Unless that person is a natural programming virtuoso, I don't see it happening otherwise.
I would suggest, if you are serious about programming, to spend a substantial amount on learning the fundamentals before tackling something like this.
Good luck.
Greetings, everyone. I consider myself to be an intermediate developer, but, to be candid, probably closer to novice than expert. In any case, I have more experience with C# and the .NET platform, but my current job has me working almost exclusively with Java. This in itself is sort of a problem, but I'm dealing with it fine and I'm not really in a position to change my role at the moment.
On the side, I am starting to work on a highly interactive, database-driven web project. I'm doing it because I feel that it's a great idea and I know that the experience of doing something like this from scratch will help me immensely.
I initially wanted to go with ASP.NET MVC and I am still leaning that direction. I'm not even sure why, but I love the community behind it and, in my opinion, Visual Studio is the best IDE around. However, doing that would be counter-productive to my current job. That brought me to Grails. Even though I realize that Groovy is not Java, it seems to be similar enough (not to mention that it runs on the JVM) that the skills I learn should still help me at my current job. The more I looked into Grails, the more I loved it, especially after having to deal with what I consider to be an extremely complex J2EE environment at work.
But with the good I found the bad. I can't help but notice that there are a lot of developers who are irritated with the amount of bugs in Grails. Being that I am starting a new project and I am fairly inexperienced, do I even want to consider Grails? Is it a liability? And what's the consensus about its longevity? I would really hate to get too involved if there is a good chance of it fading into obscurity within the next few years. And even if the bugs and longevity issues aren't a huge deal, how would you compare the ease of development of Grails with that of ASP.NET MVC? I realize this last part is highly subjective. But for the sake of comparison, let's say that someone with virtually no technical background were in the same position. Would you recommend they take a look at ASP.NET MVC or Grails?
Thanks so much. If anything needs clarified or reworded, please let me know. I sincerely hope I'm not opening a can of worms...
I am the author of this question and I can give you some shares on my own experience.
As it is stated in the question, I had no real preferences and I was opened to any technology/platform that could fulfill my requirements. After many tries of different technologies (at leats few days with PHP, Rails, ASP and Grails) and some answers from StackOverflow, I ended up with the same dilemma as yours : Grails or ASP.NET MVC ?
And I chose Grails. Why? Because of GORM. Almost only because of GORM. This is fantastic to deal only with your domain classes and have your DB schema automatically generated/updated. Of course, it has its limits but this is so powerful for querying and maintening your DB. You do not write SQL anymore and it is very easy to learn.
Now here is my 2-cents comparison of the 2 technologies:
GRAILS STRENGTHS
GORM (see above)
Complete Web Stack Framework : you can generate a website in minutes and everything is already configured
A lot to learn : You have Spring MVC, Hibernate, Sitemesh, Java, JEE, Groovy...Once you have mastered Grails you can add an additional page into your resume
Java world. Whatever you need, if it already exist in Java, you can use it.
Groovy : I really like this programming language. It takes time to get familiar but once done, you will love it.
GRAILS WEAKNESSES
Memory usage. Grails/groovy is greedy for memory and it might cost more than ASP for Web Hosting
Grails bugs : there are some and when you start a new project on a new technology, you assume that most of the problems come from you...until you find out (after 1 or 2 days) that it is a Grails bug. So my advice is to proceed by steps : test as soon as possible and don't try to twist the framework. It is rough on the edge so go after what is generally recommended. However, after 2 months, I do not encounter big problems anymore.
Debugging : due to the multiple layers of frameworks, errors are generally hidden inside tons of exception lines. Also, the only decent IDE debugger is IntelliJ but this is not as easy to debug as .NET under VS
ASP.NET MVC STRENGTHS
The community : it's HUGE ! First it is supported by Microsoft and secondly 30% of the websites out there are built in ASP.NET. You can find any snippets of code, any widgets, any AJAX components, any CMS...Grails community is very active but can you rival against millions ?
Visual Studio : I definitely agree with you : there is no better IDE. IntelliJ is very good for Grails but having using both, I prefered VS
ASP.NET MVC WEAKNESSES
The youthness of ASP.NET : this is a young framework. Built on a stable technology but young enough (less than 2 years) to have also some bugs/some bad practices. Indeed, the next version of ASP.NET MVC is strongly awaited by the community.
Microsoft : even if ASP.NET MVC is open-source, you are totally dependent on their decisions (and prices).
The Bottom Line
If you project has tight deadline and if it is crucial for you to succeed, then go for ASP (according to your background). Otherwise, give a try to Grails..don't worry, you will also succeed but it will take more time. I am also deeply convinced that Grails has just started its long journey and it has a great future (see google trends)
Update by Dmitriy: If your refer to Google Trends you have to compare the 2 of them Groovy Grails and ASP.NET MVC.
Good luck
This is something that's been pretty much asked before here...
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:BpGj8RtSUIsJ:stackoverflow.com/questions/1283935/what-technology-asp-php-joomla-rails-grails-for-a-website-from-scratch+Which+technology+to+choose+%28ASP.net+or+Grails%29&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Good Luck though!
Because of the nature of new project we are about to start, I need to get into Java world rather quickly.
I have about 8 years of PHP experience, and about 3 year in Javascript.
(CI, Kohana and my own MVC framework)
I have solid knowledge of OOP (as much as you can get from PHP/JS and little ActionScript & python here and there)
So instead of learning from scratch, i was thinking to grab some web framework (at the end, project will be web based) and learn java along the way. Java code it self don't seam too strange, and i have solid experience with MVC in php so the whole concept makes sense to me.
So I'm looking a list of instructions on how should I learn Java.
(and not to spend too much time on things that are not so important)
Also you can suggest framework, from what i seen, struts looks nice, spring too, but it seam that it have too much XML configuration...
Start with a good book. I always found Thinking in Java pretty good, besides there is a free online version available. Skip the things you already know. Well you probably know what an object is and so on...
Next thing learn to use a good IDE. Have a look at Netbeans, IntelliJ IDEA or Eclipse. Java without a proper IDE is useless.
If you transit from PhP you are probably going to develop some Web applications? This is a steep learning curve. JavaEE is big, complex and it takes a while to dig into all those frameworks. Propably you end up saying "Why is this so complicated, I can do it much easier in PhP". You will be right about that.
Can't give you a good recommendation about the frameworks that are suited best for you. We use Seam + Richfaces. Not that hard.
If you're switching from PHP, and looking at Web frameworks, then I'm assuming that you intend to continue Web development in Java. In that case I would spend a little bit of time on the Java Tutorials, then get into a book on Web programming in Java, like Head First Servlets and JSP. I think it will be a lot more focused on what you need than more general books on the Java language.
(source: oreilly.com)
I also find that once you learn the basics of servlets, JSP, and JSTL, it becomes much easier to understand any of the different Java-based Web frameworks.
None of them required extensive XML configuration anymore, those were the old days.
I will suggest you to grab Java concepts, anyway. Grab a good Java book to learn it along the way, as you said. Thinking in Java is good to go, but its just about core java and concepts. For java web you might want to look into Servlet and JSP basic, which you can learn using official J2EE Tutorial from Sun.
For Java web framework, there are plenty. But I would suggest you something you are already familiar with. You are right MVC based Java framework. Struts and Spring both are MVC frameworks and give you are clear separation of layers. Spring is a giant in itself, it has the answer for almost everything, that might confuse you in the start. Struts 1 is already outdated, and Struts 2 has a very tough competition.
I would suggest you to look into Wicket. It just a web framework, unlike Spring, and a very well written and easy to grasp.
Its a tough task, I must say. Lets see what other has to recommend.
Good point, nooomi. I would suggest Netbeans, its much more intuitive, and sleek.
IntelliJ is amazing, but commercial and not free.
Eclipse is not my type, lot of other folks are quite happy with that. You might find it good too.
So I'm looking a list of instructions
on how should I learn Java. (and not
to spend too much time on things that
are not so important)
I liked Head First Java, but I know some find the format offputting, and experienced programmers probably find it a bit simplistic, the SJCP Study Guide by same author (Kathy Sierra) goes more in-depth while keeping playful tone. There is of course the Java Tutorial online where you can get a quick overview of the main parts of the platform. Effective Java is a good "best practices" book once you have gotten the hang of the basics.
Also you can suggest framework, from
what i seen, struts looks nice, spring
too, but it seam that it have too much
XML configuration...
Another vote from me for Wicket as web framework. For persistence/db part, I recommend you look into iBatis before trying Hibernate. This is a "sql query" oriented framework rather than object-relational mapping, so it will probably feel more familiar to you. I haven't used it yet myself, but from what I have heard it probably has fewer "gotchas" (with regards to caching, performance etc) than Hibernate too.
I've done lots of java web development using jsps and servlets, and I have found this approach to be straightforward and flexible. Some of the groundwork involved though - such as managing database connections - is rather tedious, and it takes a fair amount of work just to get a new web app off the ground.
I'm therefore considering using a framework for the first time, but my impression of frameworks is that they're mostly used for large J2EE applications and involve a lot of complex configuration. What I'm looking for is something simple that (after the initial learning curve) will enable me to get up and running with a new web app as quickly as possible.
So my question is - does it make sense to use a framework for a simple java web app?
Note that I'm not asking which framework to use (if indeed a framework is recommended), as it has already been asked here.
If you don't use a web framework you'll usually end up writing one - poorly.
It makes a lot of sense. My team has spent the better part of five years with our open source stack and no matter and we have a "seed" project (works like appfuse) that we use to create all new web apps. Even the simple two pagers from the pov of maintaining the app, it looks like every other app, just smaller.
The short is you won't get any return on the investment right now, but you will as the project evolves and you maintain it.
Yes, I would use a web framework for the following reasons:
Increased navigation capabilities and controls. Even though you may not need them, they are there for you to use should you require them at any time
As others have indicated, apps grow over time and you will feel the need for the framework at some point in time in the future. When you need to add additional pages and navigation
Features that allow you to plug into other frameworks such as security and DB access frameworks. Spring is a prime example in the Java world. You never have to use Spring but it plugs in so well with Struts, Spring MVC, Hibernate, Acegi etc. It ends up saving you the hassle of doing all of the plumbing on your own.
Support!!! Good frameworks almost always have a vibrant community to support them and ask and answer questions.
It may seem like too much hassle initially but definitely saves you much time in the future
I'd say it actually matters quite a lot which framework you go for. Something like Spring MVC is fairly unobtrusive in your code and allows you existing stuff to run quite a lot as-is. Other frameworks have much more specific ideas about how you should do things.
Yes it does make sense. Apps can grow and change and might require something a framework can provide easily in the future.
For example at my workplace we have simple jsp / servlet app. It needs to be rewritten just because of what I explained above. If someone would have taken the time to just get the framework setup we would be in better shape today.
Yes it makes sense. However implicit in your question is that the wrong (for you) framework can be more pain than it's worth - and that's true. There is a world of difference between some heavy J2EE framework and something light and cheerful like grails.
What's the alternative? Rolling your own? Embedding all the navigation and logic in the JSPs?
I agree with those who say that a web framework is worth it. There are literally hundreds now (e.g., Struts, JSF, Spring, Wicket, etc.). Pick one that suits you.
There are two kinds of applications:
1) the kind that you throw away and never use again, and therefore should not worry about modularity, maintainability and clarity.
2) the real kind.
It may sometimes seem that your app may never have to grow, scale, or service a larger feature set / user base than you currently are planning for....I assure you, that perception is always wrong.
Frameworks, specifically things like Struts for MVC in Java, Spring for MVC and Dependency Injection, Hibernate for Object-Relational Modeling are all extremely valuable tools that lead to modularity, maintainability and clarity in your code. So, to answer your original question.... Yes, emphatically.
No it doesn't unless:
you don't have any java experience
in your team
you are doing just a prototype that
must be ready in hours
you don't trust your developers
enough to let them write your
application
you don't plan to let your
developers learn and improve
Danger in using frameworks include but not limited to:
you'll get all framework defects on
top on your own
you'll be unable to do realistic estimates until you
know perfectly the framework
your team won't learn how to program a
web server
you'll find your team passing more
and more time on google instead that
solving problems by writing code.
The only thing that is worst that choosing a open source framework is having a separate R&D team in the company who should create the "big complete ultimate company framework".
but my impression of frameworks is that they're mostly used for large J2EE applications and involve a lot of complex configuration
Not necessarily true. The good frameworks are built to scale well so that they will take you from small apps to very large apps. Many of the frameworks today are moving towards zero configuration so you will find them easier and easier to use.
You are right that it does take an initial effort to learn the framework itself but that investment pays for itself in the very first application you build. And meta frameworks like AppFuse makes it even easier to get started since it pre-configures the frameworks for you.
Frameworks make sense for most applications. It may be necessary for you to build your own or adopt some other framework. The most important questions is the granularity of your data structures. What I mean by this is do you need to just enter data or do you need to parse, compile and execute dynamic code?
If you think of a frame works as a gauge and to the left is an all ready existing frame work open source or closed and to the right is all custom framework then super impose your code on top of that frame work where the level of complexity increases to the right. The farther right you go the more of a stuggle you will have with the frame work (IMO).
However, you can also slowly migrate from existing to custom framework.
There is also the question about your business. If you work for a business that does not look at software as it's core compentency such as a bank or hospital then you need to way that into how much of a frame work you want to build.
Bottom line a framework of some type will always be useful.
Using a framework may add some overhead to your web-app development due to the learning curve. However, depending on the framework you choose, you may be able to realize the following benefits:
Scalability
Maintainability
Clear Division of your model (e.g. MVC)
Out-of-the-box components(SessionManagement,authentication,etc )
Third party plugins
Modularity inherited from the framework
Many others.
Besides, the learning curve is a variable factor. Some frameworks may be easier to learn than others depending on your skills.
It definitely makes sense to look into using a framework even if for no other reason than it'll give you a new area of knowledge. If you've got the time to invest in learning a framework then you may well find in time that it's easier and faster to use that for new projects no matter how simple they are.
Also, if I could vote for SamBeran's post then I would. Getting started with a framework will involve several moments of "oh great! I don't need to write all that boilerplate again!".
I'd say use one - like you said, it's rather tedious to get stuff up and running for even a simple java web app. If the framework helps you get the job done faster and provides the services you need, I'd say it makes sense.