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I'm writing an online multiplayer game, and I'm thinking about implementing the network code in Java, using JBoss Netty. But I'm considering C++ for the 3D rendering (they're simple graphics, nothing extensive). Would it be worth implementing such behavior in C++?
Would it be worth implementing such behavior in C++?
No, I would recommend doing everything in java or in c++. That way you won't have any problems with c++ to java interoperability. In case you already have the network code in java I would go for that.
If you choose java you can use a 3D rendering library like for example jogl or lwjgl. These libraries are really light weight and you will probably not have any problems with the actual rendering performance since it is done by the graphics chip.
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Since Java supports OpenGL, what is the best option for developing a game?
Java + OpenGL
C++ + SDL + OpenGL
I always avoided Java (in game development, of course) because of it's speed. But, I discovered that Java supports OpenGL. So, I think speed can't be the problem anymore. What should you choose? Are there remarks?
Java would be a lot easier for me, because of my experiences in Java and the garbage collector.
In my opinion, if you have an idea for a game in your head it doesn't matter what you write it with (at first), C/C++, Java, pen & paper... Pick the language you're more comfortable with, prototype and test your game idea, once you have a rough sketch and know what you need to do, throw the prototype out, design the gameplay & architecture and then start coding the actual thing. Don't optimize until after you've got most or all of the functionality working (in general, there's always minor bugs to hunt) and you actually see where the bottlenecks are.
I've seen it happen over and over again, game programmers are among the worst premature optimizers ever, trying to squeeze out a few cycles from something trivial, while missing the biggest bottlenecks and then optimize some more (in the wrong place). I've also found myself guilty of this many times. I'd say don't pick C++ (or Java for that matter) because of the speed, you can get very good performance out from both, if done "right". If need be, you can always switch to another language, if the language itself is really the bottleneck or really preventing you from doing something. Java isn't automatically slow and C++ isn't automatically fast, you can go (very) wrong with both. I used to root for C and C++ in everything, but after having worked with Java for quite a while, I really don't miss all the hassle that much.
There are lots of (already optimized and fairly easy to use) game engines available for both languages, so there's no need to roll your own... unless you really want to. In my experience, most hobbyist "game programmers" tend to be more interested in the technical side of things than in the actual game (myself included) ;) Once all the technical hurdles are done and you get that nice model/bunch of sprites/particle effects running with some shader-effects, the enthusiasm seems to fade away... But don't let me discourage you, game programming is very fun, even if you never actually finish anything (I wouldn't call any of my own projects finished).
I haven't coded any games for a while, but for C++ 2D SDL is a good candidate, other option could be SFML, or if you want a lower level touch with OpenGL, you could try going with GLFW + SOIL + some audio library. For full-blown 3D, I'd say try either OGRE or Irrlicht + Irrklang (there are probably loads of others too).
In Java, there's at least Slick2D, Golden T Game Engine and for lower level access, LWJGL (although I think you can access LWJGL via Slick2D also). For 3D, someone recommended jMonkeyEngine to me, but I've never tried it.
I would vote for C++ for the simple fact that you have a dependable destructor in your objects. This lets you wrap many of the OpenGL components (buffers, textures, etc.). You can know that when the object is created, the asset is allocated, and when the object is destroyed (or goes out of scope), the asset is cleaned up.
It certainly can be done in Java. Minecraft was made in Java, and it has pulled in over $25 million.
Java has been proven to be just as fast if not faster than C++, though granted, you don't achieve such results without a little parameter tweaking and careful monitoring of the garbage collector. If you want to pursue game design with Java, I'd say that's a good choice to make, provided you study up on how to approach it first.
I'd go with C++, SDL, and OpenGL.. SDL is getting revamped with 1.3 at the moment, and it will be really good. In my opinion you should do it in C++ as you have stated you would feel more comfortable with Java, being comfortable after making a game in C++ would be very beneficial. You would not only make a game, but learn more at the same time.
If you go down the Java route you may need to ship the JVM along with your game. That's not to say don't do it but many people may not have Java installed or not have a recent enough version for the features and performance that you want. I haven't looked into the licensing requirements for shipping the JVM but that's probably something you'll want to investigate before making the decision.
You should also be aware that when highly tuning an app that although the Java API is the same across platforms that there are differences because the implementations of those often use the underlying OS. So I doubt that using Java would reduce the test burden at all for a game.
It really depends on what language your most used to. There's a steeper learning curve with c++ than with java. If you not into none of the languages, and is eager to get some development done I would recommend java.
And a little side note. If you totally new I would also recommend looking at XNA, but it's based on DirectX. And you have to know some C#.
Well I've programmed all my games in SDL and I would definitely recommend using c++. Though you may want to look at SFML!
http://www.sfml-dev.org/
SFML is already integrated with OpenGL, and it's fairly easy to get up and running with game programming.
It really depends on what kind of games you want to build and which programming language your more comfortable with.
If your planning to make big games in the future , C++ is best for overall experience. Most commercial games are written in C/C++. Microsoft also has XNA framework which uses C#
Id still go with the programming language your more convenient with, they are both great
However, if you dont mind learning a bit more then go with C++
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Presently, i am learning Java from the book The Art and Science of Java and following Standford's Programming Methodology Course.
I would like to do game programming, but only as a hobby.
I was thinking, would Java be a good choice or is C++ the defacto in game programming.
Since you are learning Java i would recommend that you stick to it.
If you are only developing games for fun, it won't really matter what language you use.
That depends, do you want to learn more about C++? Do you need to know? There's still OpenGL libraries in Java that are available, and the concepts would essentially be the same regardless of what language you work in. If it's just for a hobby then I can't see anything wrong with working in Java. In terms of speed however, lower-level languages are prefered.
Either would be fine. For a hobby, they both have pretty good low-level support for graphics etc, and both also have pretty good higher-level libraries for games (jMonkey engine, SDL, SFML, Ogre and many more).
You could also consider other languages too. Python has SDL bindings called PyGame. C# has the XNA framework which has several books published for it now to help learning the framework. SFML has bindings for C++, C, D, Ruby and I think Python. All of these are then suitable for creating games in. Just pick a language and off you go.
If you ask me, neither Java or C++ are fun languages. Both of them have a number of advantages but if you're doing it for fun and don't have deadlines, I would seek out a language that's more fun. Like Python, or something similar.
If you want to make games you really need a game platform as well as a language, otherwise you will spend all your time solving basic problems like how to draw a sprite to the screen, rather than concentrating on building a fun game.
Great choices for hobby games development are:
Microft's XNA platform with C# language
Adobe's Flash with ActionScript language
Sun's JavaFX platform with JavaFX script language
Unity3D with C# language
Ogre with C++ language
You can write games using both languages but I think you should really try C++. There are far more high-level libraries and game engines written in C++ than Java so it would be easier to find one that suits your needs. Not to mention that a lot of older games have been open sourced and you can freely download them and study the code. You can guess what language they're using ;)
Also you'll find a lot more tutorials and books that teach game programming using C/C++.
No matter what you choose in the end, have fun writing your games :)
If you go with Java, I recommend Computer Graphics for Java Programmers, by Leen Ammeraal.
If you were developing commercial games you would be using libraries rather than implementing these algorithms yourself, but it's easier once you know the fundamentals, which you can learn from a book like this one.
I once wrote a software renderer for a DOOM clone in Java, and having this book for reference helped a lot.
C++ is THE defacto language not only for game development but for pretty much everything else, including the browser you are using along with the OS it runs on.
So if you are considering ever getting serious with programming C/C++ should be top at your list.
As for speed C++ IS generally fast than Java.
Why generally?Well, the truth is that C++ is faster than Java, is faster than pretty much everything else actually, but sometimes C++ code can be poorly written and Java may prevent beginners to make some mistakes resulting in many of the claims that Java is as fast as C++, there are even claims that Python/Psyco are as fast as C++ and faster than Java.
Keep in mind that no program written for a framework (Java, .NET, VB, etc) will ever run faster than a program that runs on a lower level (direct on the OS or even the hardware) like C/C++, ASM, Pascal and so on.
Take a look at this:
Poorly written C++ half the speed of Java, properly written is much faster
At the end of the day you should go with the language that you feel more comfortable with, remember that python is enterprise ready, commercial, stable, great for beginners, awesome to use on "Web 2.0" projects not to mention that is a lot of fun too.
Java - I'd recommend sticking to one and getting good at it. The ideas remain the same, and as you learn more about a single language, you'll begin to learn about the drawbacks and advantages that are prevalent in many of the programming methodologies and languages today.
Even if you never intend to get into professional game development there is one big advantage to C++, which is that you have a lot more resources available. There are more books, more tutorials online, more open source examples to look at and more people who will be able to answer your questions on sites like gamedev.net.
I have developed a couple of small games in both C++ and Java and I would select C++ everytime. It gives you the low level control which you just dont get with java. But games development is a whole different beast. So if you are looking to learn games developement start in something you are comofrtable with
If you think you may one day want to work in the industry, you should learn C++. C++ is used to make pretty much all commercial games that run on PC/xbox/ps3. I assume wii is the same but don't know 100%, I never worked on wii.
The games studio I used to work at (before it got shut down) used C++ for the game (small parts used C and assembler) and was starting to use C# for tools.
If it will only ever be a hobby, then it doesn't really matter what language you use.
I would suggest to try Haaf's Game Engine for C. It is very very simple 2D engine with good documentation, tutorials and examples, runs on Windows 98 and above and it is ABSOLUTELY free even for commercial usage!
If you're completely new to game development, it's right for you IMHO.
Only a hobby? If you're using Java then Java. But first, what are you programming, 2-D or 3-D games? Java does both, and it's my game programing language, but I'm doing only 2-D programs. C++ is the defacto standard for serious game programming, especially commercial games.
Java has a great IDE called Eclipse, which, to me, is worth doing Java all by itself...Eclipse rocks! And it's free.
C# - no. Way too Microsoft dependent.
Btw, Java will work as an applet and as an application if you plan it well, the application runnable on all three platforms...
So, think about it. Low investment, high quality tools, cross-platform. If you decide to get into C++, then that's okay too. At least you will have wet your toes for free...
;-)
Language defines target platform and public. Both Java and C++ have advantages and disadvantages. You will use same architectures and algorithms on any platform. If you know how to write a game in C++ it takes a little to write game in java (2 weeks for me http://madeinsoviets.net/).
Start learning game programming with C++ and some easy game engine (Ogre3D, irrlight) - much more information and tutorials.
Old topic but since people still read this i want to add my 2c since its unique
to this post.
Stick with java, its a great way to make games over c++ if your going to do it as a hobby
and by yourself for these 2 reasons.
10x less coding for the same results (albeit it runs about 5x
slower)
Android games, even mediocre ones will sell (a buck each) on the
marketplace. if you sell even one your going to feel huge pride!
(also java doesnt slow down over C++ on android because its JVM is
unique and runs against the API directly accessing hardware, which
is fantastic!)
If you are just doing it as a hobby, it probably doesn't matter. Just use whatever you are most comfortable so you can get into the swing of game programming. Once you get better, you might like to figure out what is the "best" language.
I would definitely suggest C++ if your intention is general game programming. Of course, if you want to develop for a mobile platform such as Nokia and Ericsson then Java might be a good idea.
But if it is for general desktop gaming then definitely C++. If you want to deploy games over the net then flash might also be a good idea.
If you're planning to enter the industry (or maybe a day start to sell your game yourself), then you have to learn C++.
Java or C# are good choice to get to the point of creating game without worrying much about the machine (memory and speed). That's recommended for beginner, but I would personally start directly with C++.
If you're looking into game programming then C++ is the way to go. Sure Java will be good for certain games, but C++ is so much faster.
I've coded in Java before, and then started coding in C++. The time I've spent coding in C++ made me understand certain things that were heavily simplified in Java.
Depending on how much experience you have programming, I'd suggest to learn the basics of Java and then move on to C++.
If you start with Java, I recommend this book Physics for Game Programmers
In general, C++ is for real games.
Java has always been slow for me, whatever platform or program I use.
C# is better than Java, but not as good as C++.
Yes, there are exceptions, but the fact that they are so notable rather proves that C++ is just the way to go unless you really know what you're doing.
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I understand that C++ is generally considered better than Java for games (at least larger-scale games). Why is this?
What is keeping Java from being competitive in this field? Which reasons against using Java for game programming have the most basis, and which ones are myths?
EDIT: Am a bit unfamiliar with C/C++, and did not think to differentiate between the two at line 1 >.<
The reason Java (and C#/.NET) is not a viable option for AAA titles at this point is the established game engines and their toolchains are written in C++. Game development is all about getting a title on the market in the shortest amount of time, and budgets don't allow for piddling in things like a new language/engine when several are already available, work well, and have an extensive set of editors and tools backing them.
Moving to Java (or C#) would also require a new performance-driven JVM (or CLI) across the big-3 (PC, X360, PS3) or big-5 (add Wii, iPhone). It's technically doable, but not financially viable.
Edit: Anyone with low-level knowledge of both virtual machines and the current state of game engines can tell you that a JVM or CLI could unquestionably be implemented with a new game engine to beat the performance of current C++ engines. The preventing factor is time and money, nothing more and nothing less.
High performance and the inertia of C and C++ traditionally being used for games.
Choosing based on performance isn't that big a priority unless you are making a 3D extravaganza.
Because:
Java is not compiled to native code, meaning that there is a performance hit the first time the code is run.
Java does not give you a predictable memory model (console games need this)
Java does not give you deterministic object finalization.
Java is not as close to the hardware as C is, an essential for a lot of professional 3D game programming.
Console programmers likely don't have a JVM that runs on the PS3, X-Box, etc.
Runtime performance penalties.
You will never be able to squeeze as much performance out of a Java app as you can with a C++ app.
There are probably more reasons, like the fact that they are using pre-existing code that was written in C or C++.
EDIT: As an aside, I don't think that many modern games are written in C. OOP lends itself to game development, and C++ is the de facto language of choice.
Also, I won't add it to my list, but as others have mentioned there is a lot of pre-existing code that works very well that is used in the game industry. It would not be practical to rewrite all/most of your tools just to switch to a new language especially when that switch could cause you a lot of headaches.
I would say, despite the other answers pointing to a lack in speed caused mainly by the JVM, that the real reason people don't code games in Java is the lack of support for environments such as DirectX and OpenGL (which actually remove the need for your code to be close to he hardware as it was suggested by some answers). They are the base frameworks that people generally use to code games, especially nowadays with 3D games being everywhere - and lack of support for them is the reason why Java is not considered as a language for game development.
To emphasize my point, I would suggest you take a look at Microsoft's XNA which is currently optimized for coding in C# via the .NET framework (which like Java is Just-In-Time-Compiled and doesn't run natively per se). The XNA framework interfaces with DirectX which talks to the hardware and so it is very fast.
EDIT
#Ed Swangren's comment made me realize yet another distinction between .NET vs Java when considered for game development. I think another strong point to .NET is that if you do need to be able to squeeze out that last bit of performance and do some pointer math or implement a sophisticated high-performance algorithm it's a lot easier thanks to the unsafe mode. Of course you can even go beyond that and write native libraries to be used by your C# code which is made pretty simple thanks to P/Invoke.
Leaving C(++) aside for the moment... I am inclined to say much of the reason is that Java lacks anything like XNA. What advantages does Java actually have over a language such as C++ when it comes to game development? You have to consider that several of it's typical advantages disappear for the specific area of game development, while C++ gains several.
XNA is what made C# a highly popular language for amateur game development, and contrary to common belief, a quite viable option for commercial development too. C#/.NET being a parallel to Java in so many ways (and arguably a better framework nowadays), when people now have the option for game development with a higher-level language, C# would seem like the much more appealing one, unless cross-platform support is essential (then again, we have Mono and OpenGL for .NET).
C (or rather, C++) has long been the language of game development due to their low-level nature (thus performance benefits) and the host of graphics frameworks (DirectX, OpenGL) and engines that primarily target them. It's usage is embedded in game development and been used virtually since the inception of the industry - and won't disappear any time soon, I suspect.
Java doesn't have as controllable performance
Its highly reversable so harder to protect
Many Games employ scripting languages like lua or python to get "higher" level programming
the API of most systems is C oriented.
Java can be used for back end server systems that games connect to
Flash games seems to of taken the niche Java games could have had.
Java can be optimized to be very fast, as is evident by an interview I had recently with a high-frequency trading company, where they do use Java, as well as C++.
Java has OpenGL bindings, as others have pointed out, so getting to the hardware isn't such a problem, esp since not all games need that, some commercial games have been written for Java3D.
You can use Scala or F# if you want some more performance for multi-threaded or numerically intensive operations, and just tie those in with the GUI.
But, as others have mentioned, the tools that are used tend to be written for C++, and some companies feel more comfortable doing some optimizations in assembly, but, given the fact that the new cpus are very complicated, with multicores, it is unlikely you will get any performance increase over the optimizations from the compilers, but, as long as companies feel these optimizations are still needed, they will stay with C++.
If some developers wanted to write commercial-grade tools for Java or .NET, there could be a market opportunity there, but it will be a great deal of work to make it as good as what is already out there.
I think C or C++ is a better language for building many types of games because it is closer to the hardware and likely to be the first language implemented on any new hardware. Not only that the libraries for accessing many of the advanced features of today's hardware are likely to be implemented in C.
Your typically general purpose higher level language has no easy way to access features of the hardware unless it uses some type of binding layer to call the libraries which are written in C.
For instance how do you write code to access a GPU, or write a custom Shader, or write code that run well on a Cell chip, or run on an Iphone, or on a Blackberry in a high level language. Even when these things are supported, they come out well after other people are able to write games in C that use these features in games.
One compromise you can make is to use a higher level language like Java for most things and C where its needed. You will limit the types of platforms you support though.
Java might also be good for client/server games where the server is written in Java.
It's very hard to write a program that runs in constant memory without garbage collection in Java.
If you want to read statements from game studios who are happy to use java for serious game development then search on twitter for #javaforgames
https://twitter.com/search?q=javaforgames
By studying the Java developers tweets conclude that Java is good for game development if you use it in combination with a high level game engine API such as libgdx and jmonkeyengine that both ease development effort and makes the game tuned to take advantage of the OpenGL/ES hardware acceleration provided by modern GPU hardware.
Java do allow cross-platform goals using said engines on mobile, console and desktop.
Some game developers prefer java for the design phase of the game to engineer in-house tooling.
Java game studios and developers who seek the best performance can archive it by tightly controlling OpenGL by using JOGL or LWJGL directly. Also performance and flexibility archive this by writing their own engine, if time and money allows it.
I wouldn't say that it is always true that C is better than Java for game programming.
For example, if you want to write a game client which can be hosted in a web page, Java could be better.
When writing games which produce amazing 3-D graphics (e.g., Halo on the X-box), usually there is barely enough computing speed to generate all the pixels for each frame. In this kind of game, C would be preferable to Java because it allows the programmer to write faster programs -- at a large expense in terms of difficulty in extracting that speed.
I think it's mostly because c lets developers squeeze every last little bit of performance out of hardware, whereas Java doesn't, it's not low level enough for things like high end 3d video renderers. Basically c lets you squeeze out a couple more frames per second in your next gen shooter.
Inertia mainly... Although it's a bit old now, you can look at Jake2 (which is a pure Java port of Quake 2 with jogl as the openGL lib).
It can perform up to 85% as fast as the C++ original, which means it's fine for most games; especially modern ones which are more social and game play based rather than the limited "hard core" games.
I'd also suggest that most of the answers you get here are coming from a gaming geek/"I want the coolest hardware and games". For [these] hard core 3D games and gamers, that final 15% is hugely important, as that's what separates the $150 graphics card from the $500 one they just bought.
As John Carmack is reported to have said (something along the lines of): "If I were to enter games programming now, I'd program for the iPhone". e.g. it's not nearly as much fun to make the fastest game with the best 3d engine as it is to make the best game.
The console game market is about 10X larger (financially) than the PC game market. For current generation consoles, all the major programming is in C or C++ with some little bits of intrinsics or assembler. If you want to be a professional Game Programmer and work at any major game company, then learn C and C++.
More to the point, all the commercial cross platform engines that are that starting points for many commercial games are in C or C++ right now as well.
You may be able to work on small games in java and flash or even casual Windows games in C#. You can even code C# for XNA games but if you want to make REAL (pressed on DVD) XBOX 360 games you need to learn C++.
Speaking as a game developer at WBGames Chicago. We would not hire a programmer who didn't have strong C++ skills. The same is true at every other game studio that I know of.
The short answer is because almost no gaming platforms support Java, or if they do there is a much better alternative.
On the game consoles, seasoned game developers are using C because that's what they've been doing for 20 years. There's no compelling reason for Java games to exist there.
On the desktop, there are a few Java games, but they can't compete with the market leaders such as World of Warcraft.
On the web, Applets are long dead, and if you're going to make a casual game it's going to be in Flash.
In the mobile space, JME has had it's time in the sun but it's on its way to obsolescence in the face of far superior platforms such as the iPhone.
The perfect world scenario for Java to be a heavy hitter in the gaming world would be for Sun/Oracle to deliver a gaming platform like the Wii or the iPhone - a must-have device that everybody owns. Then, there is a good reason for developers to invest time into experimenting with new technology. But given Sun and Oracle's apparent lack of interest in the consumer market, the chances of them making a gaming rig are slim to none.
It's not a technical issue but purely a "client optics" issue for this.
Good Java code can run just as fast as good C++ code. It can access OpenGL just as fast as native C++ via projects like LWJGL and JMonkeyEngine.
The real reason is that Sun never put any effort into highlighting Java for games and they've never made any deployment particularly easy for Java games. It's a LOT of work and effort of the developer / team to create a seamless / smooth installation (and launch?) experience for the player.
Customers just don't "trust" Java games and bail during the install process when they see the logo.
Although old, no one here seems to point out
All the games and apps on Android are programmed in Java
Because not only is Android written in Java, so are most all of its apps/games/etc...
I will answer in a very different way.
If Java can nevre write a device driver like C, how can you Imagine that it would be faster than the language that the driver is already written in ?
I'm interested in learning OpenGL and my favorite language at the time is Java. Can I reap its full (or most) benefits using things like JOGL or should I instead focus on getting stronger C++ skills?
Btw, which is your Java OpenGL wrapper library of choice and why?
JOGL is a wrapper library that allows OpenGL to be used in the Java programming language. It is currently the reference implementation for
JSR-231 (Java Bindings for OpenGL) so it should be your first choice
I have done some basic OpenGL development in Delphi and Java as well. I used JOGL, as mentioned in others' replies, and I must conclude that although there is very little difference in programming OpenGL in Java using JOGL and programming OpenGL in other languages (Delphi, C++, etc...) it just doesn't feel right. It was driving me crazy to set it all up correctly and then writing stuff like
gl.glBegin (GL.GL_QUADS)
there seems to be a lot of superfuous gl, GL, GLU to be written and it just gets in your way. Also the performance would be, I believe, much better if you used C++ or similar, NOT Java.
I am not saying hands off JOGL (Java+OpenGL), it can be done, and it really isn't too different, but... as I said. Give c++ a try, if you can.
If you are also interested in just doing 3D stuff in Java without worrying about all that low-level stuff, check out Java3D.
Worst case, you can look at how they leverage OpenGL for some good learning material.
if you really want to get serious at 3d programming you have to learn C/C++, C++ is the standard for programming 3d games
Do it in C++, the bits you'll be using will basically be the same, because there won't be much messing about with pointers, so it's not a major leap of intuition. Also, the C++ bindings are more reliable and (in my experience) the fastest out of all the langauges available (Python in particular REALLY can't do OpenGL).
Also, C++ is always a good thing to learn, it makes you think about programming concepts in much more detail, as opposed to just popping in an ArrayList<> or whatever pre-built class kind-of-serves your purposes =]